The New York Times has launched a new podcast series called The Interview, the first two installments of which debuted over the weekend. The first, featuring the actress Anne Hathaway, interested not a whit. The second, in which cohost Lulu Garcia-Navarro interviewed Israel’s Opposition Leader, was a different story.
Its title, “Yair Lapid Says the World Misunderstands Israel,” tells the story. By way of context, Lapid, who briefly served as Israel’s 14th Prime Minister (July-December 2022) heads the Yesh Atid party, one of the very few in the Knesset that did not join the Unity Government in the wake of the October 7 massacre. And yet, while it’s clear Lapid thinks Netanyahu is a disaster, the amount of light between his view of the war in Gaza and that of his nemesis would not expose a roll of film.
As an Israeli, I’m as worried as I’ve ever been. I feel the fragility of our society. I meet with the hostage families and discuss with them the endless pain and fear and agony they have. And of course, there’s no way for me not to imagine being in their place if my children were there or my mother was there, held by a terror organization. And I’m haunted by memories of Oct. 7, by the implications on our security.
As a political leader, I’m worried, but a different kind of worried, because I don’t think we have the right leadership to handle the moment.
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We are fighting an existential war. I don’t think people understand the level of fear and angst — I mean the international community, the international media. It is horrifying to me to see this footage of young people marching on American campuses, shouting, “From the river to the sea.” And then you ask them, Do you know what river it is or what sea it is? And they have no clue. They’re putting us on the side of the bad guys without even knowing what happened, what we have been going through.
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First and foremost, I blame it on a cynical radical Islamic movement that is using the lack of knowledge from American youngsters, who are buying this as part of an ongoing struggle between the oppressors and those who are oppressed, or between white privileged people and people who are not. We keep telling them: Anne Frank was not a white privileged kid. And the story is not what you are told, and how come you’re marching in favor of people who want to kill Jews because they’re Jews? Because this is the way Hamas, Hezbollah and the Islamic Jihad are. And they’re supporting them against the democratic country. This is, to me, unbelievable in so many ways.
But I also blame an Israeli government who doesn’t understand or doesn’t seem to care about its primary duty to make this easier for those who support us in the United States to be supportive. Not, for example, making sure settlers’ violence is restrained, not making sure we’re doing what needs to be done in terms of explaining what is really happening in the war in Gaza. And not doing the simple things like saying: Yes, our heart is broken when children are dying in Gaza. Because children are not supposed to die in grown-ups’ wars, and because we have no war with children. And we try to do our utmost to avoid hurting the innocent. This is a very dense, populated area. This is a very cruel war against an enemy that uses his own people, his own children as human shields, and casualties are sometimes inevitable. But we are sorry. And the ridiculous thing is we are doing our best. The Israeli Defense Army is doing its best to avoid this. And yet the government is not saying so out loud, because they’re afraid of some ignorant, populist voices that might say they are soft on handling the war. This is just outrageous to me.
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What is the alternative? Right now, to engage in this war has only one alternative, and this is being murdered. We never asked for this war. We never wanted this war, and we only went for this war because our children were burned alive. Because our elderly were killed. Because we have, even right now, still hostages in the terror tunnels. And they raped women, and they conquered villages. And more than that, they have openly said — they meaning Hamas — that if they have a chance, they’ll do it again. And therefore we are in Gaza to make sure it will never happen again.
Garcia-Navarro asks the obvious question:
You very deliberately did not join the war cabinet. Can you tell me why? You lead the opposition, and just hearing you speak about your defense of the conduct of the war, I’m wondering what you are in opposition to?
Part of it is because somebody has to say out loud, We have to maintain our democratic spine. We have to make sure we are handling this at least the best we can, and we have to understand that the future lies also with discussing this with other Palestinians, like the Palestinian Authority. This country needs someone who will speak about the future in different terms. We need in this country somebody who will be able to talk to the American administration or to the American political realm in a different language. And besides, I feel that Prime Minister Netanyahu is part of what led us to or has a huge responsibility for what led us to the current situation. And sitting behind him and becoming a front or legitimizing his premiership doesn’t seem like a good idea.
But I’m an Israeli patriot. I think the Israeli Army is conducting itself in terrible, sometimes impossible circumstances in an honorable way and doing its best to avoid hurting the innocent. And therefore I feel obligated to defend the way the Israeli Defense Forces are dealing with themselves. On the other hand, when something terrible happens, like when Israel accidentally killed the employees of the World Kitchen organization, I will be the first one to say: Listen, we are sorry. This shouldn’t have happened. And to demand there will be an investigation, to demand that there will be results to these investigations. So I think this voice is necessary. But I think I did the right thing, staying out of government.
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Because what I think is that — and this is my duty as the leader of the Israeli opposition, to tell the Israeli government — you need to handle this war better than you do now. We understand the need, of course, to defend the country, to defend the people, to react to what happened on Oct. 7 and to eliminate all of Hamas’s military capabilities. And on the other hand, to stay what we are, which is a democracy that is doing its best in terms of defending the idea of humanity. And, as we have discussed, defend this in circumstances that are no less than horrible. And the dialogue we have with the outside world is either with people who are chanting slogans they don’t really understand or who are determined to make this into a one-sided story.
No, Israel is not committing genocide. No, Israel is not doing anything but defend itself in a war we didn’t want. And these are not pro-government statements. This is just the reality of people who are hurting. The fact that I oppose the government so much doesn’t mean I need to oppose the idea of self-defense.
Essentially, then, the only disagreement Lapid has with Netanyahu and the rest of the Unity Government is that they could be more emphatic about how hard they’re trying to prevent innocent casualties.
To be sure, he has a much more moderate view of the Palestinian crisis. He’s a longtime proponent of a two-state solution, albeit mostly because he thinks that’s the only way Israelis will ever be safe. But that’s not exactly his priority at the present moment.
The bottom line, then, is even if there were new elections—as Lapid has repeatedly called for—and Netanyahu were ousted, there would be essentially zero change in Israeli war policy.
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Author: James Joyner
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